Thread:MrBismark/@comment-34650195-20200502162335/@comment-34650195-20200519192526

MrBismark wrote: Byz-Venetikos wrote: Furthermore, Rome didn't fall to uncivilized barbarians, it instead legally fell to another empire

Emphasis on "legally"

The influence the Romans left defined European culture as we know it

It was because of Rome that democracy was so favourable

It was because of Rome that Christendom spread throughout Europe, from the Catholic Portugal to the Byzantine Russia

It was because of Rome that your precious United States could even be founded, as many of the laws, government systems, legal codes and legal practises were first founded by Rome

Heck, Rome's conquerors (the Germanic barbarians and the Ottoman Turks) were so enamoured by Rome's splendor, that they wanted to become just like it (hence the Germanic Holy Roman Empire and the Turkish Qayzar i-Rum) >rome (((legally))) fell

The WRE did not fall to the East, they split from it. The west FELL to the barbarians, but was SUCCEEDED by the ERE.

>it was because of rome that democracy was so favorable

The idea of democracy itself came from the Greeks, specifically Athens. Rome did improve upon those ideas when it was a republic but those improvements were stunted by Caesar, curse him. After the fall of WRE democracy would basically go unheard of untill the English Civil War with the rise (and fall) of Cromwell's Britain. However, Cromwell's power trip meant that TRUE democracy didn't come untill the American Revolution, and it wasn't even in Europe so you could have to skip to the Revolutions of 1848 (because of the Jacobin power trip the French Revolution doesn't count). What occured before then was just monarchism, both Pre-and Post-Enlightenment. This was largely because (and I hate to blame religion despite being an atheist) of the Catholic Church. When the Byzantines outlived Rome and the Carolingian Empire (later to be the HRE) rose, the Pope exerted influence over those kingdoms and other Christian kingdoms which rose by giving them a reason to rule that the commoners were too stupid to refute(((divine right))). The bible was in latin until Gutenberg came along, and because the Church was so powerful (and the people were so dumb), it was either believe and submit to the king, or DIE. In a nutshell...

Pope: If I help you get to power and keep your line in power will you stay loyal to me

King: YES

Which leads me to my next point.

>it was because of rome that christendom spread

Yes, there is no doubt about that. But with the spread of Christianity came the spread of church influence. As an atheist I acknowledge that currently the church does adhrere to its values (the predatory preists will be counted as individuals), but back in the day the church was corrupt as hell (pun intended). Indulgences are a great example of this, they did end around the time of the Protestant Reformation but we're talking about Rome and the Dark Ages. This is also seen in the HRE, when the Pope and "Holy""Roman"Emperor tried to depose each other. Both were influenced (albeit incorrectly) by their faith and both wanted to rule Europe. This was also seen when the "Holy""Roman"Emperor sold church positions, the Pope was against it, but because this would lead to a loss of influence over the HRE. Eventually the corruption stopped, but it was very gradual and slow, ending in about the mid-1800's.

>it was because of rome that the US could even be founded

Yes and no. While the Founding Fathers did look to Rome for inspiration it was largely when Rome was a republic, not a despotic cesspit. The Founding Fathers' other main influence was Athens. Even without Rome the Founding Fathers could probably still have understood that a democracy which was too direct could lead to tyrrany of the majority. This was Athens's main system, it just worked because their population was smaller. Rome didn't invent democracy but improved on it, but again, this was stunted by Caesar. Roman democracy was democracy only in name. In reality it was an aristocratic oligarchy that gave common people power in theory but not in practice. After fall of democracy and rise of monarchy republican virtues became upheld much better and you can see that the stroner monarchy grew the better it was for the people. For example, tax collecting was far more brutal in the democratic Rome than Imperial Rome because tax collectors were benefitting themselves, their wealth and their political position by collecting taxes and there wasn't much regulation over how they did it.

People were so dumb that by accepting divine rights hey created stable and functioning societies instead of rebelling and trashing everything, how stupid!

Church influence is good and it is what in many ways inspired Western Europeans to become more civilized.